# 75 - Voice Writing vs. Steno with Rachel: Translation Friction, AI & Standards

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Hi Rachel.

Welcome back to the Court Reporter Podcast.

Thank you, thank you.

So we had this great idea just to have a conversation about, like, what's going on in the industry.

So tell me what you came up with.

Okay, so one thing that I'm always interested in is the blogs that I get from Steno Anonymous and kind of seeing like how they might tally with what I'm seeing in space, like different Facebook groups and things like that.

So his information, I really think it's interesting how the group circle, like we have the opinions around NCRA and NVRA and whether voice can come into those conversations.

And one thing that I've noticed in the voice groups that I've been seeing is how there's this, I don't want to say confusion, but maybe like conversation around them using AI tools when their translation rate is not what they want it to be.

And really how frustrated a lot of voice writers are.

I don't know how many numbers, but with their editing times and of course I can see that as a scopist, when I work with voice writers, their translation rate, it's the average voice writer is not getting the translation rate that a steno would get.

So that's something that's interesting to me because on the one hand, voice is celebrated and is better, quote unquote than digital or AI or those types of things.

But when you, when I talk to or not even talk to, just hear from like reading their posts in different groups, they're really frustrated with their translation rates and their and like the process.

I know there's other softwares out there that you know are supposed like assist or one is better than the other.

But I think generally I see more frustrated voice writers then I see frustrated.

And that was something that was just interesting to me.

So that was a little tidbit that I came across and I was seeing a lot of discourse about it in the different Facebook groups.

And of course the conversation around voice writers, you know, that that poll or that vote was done for NCRA of whether they were going to be able to be a part of the membership or not.

And so yeah, that was my what I Stumbled across and okay, so there.

Was a poll that the NCRA did about whether voice writers should be accepted as members.

And what was.

Do you know what the result was of that poll?

They were not going to be allowed in.

Okay, yeah.

Do you know what the numbers were or.

No.

Let me see if I can scroll through their page really quick.

The NCRA page?

Yeah, the Facebook one.

To see.

Oh, they published like, oh, so they just put a poll on Facebook and then everyone was just.

Well, I can't.

I don't know how they did the poll, but I remember while I was at NC cra the results came out that they weren't going to allow it.

So there was like a vote by the members, I think.

Was that this year or last year?

This year.

This year.

I'm actually scrolling through their Facebook page now.

And so that conversation was kind of being had and I just found it interesting because.

And I don't have a ton of facts or a ton of information about this, but what I found interesting is that if generally I just wondered like, who were the people, I guess, that wanted to be a part of.

Wanted voice to be a part of ncra?

And then when I looked at their translation rate, I guess playing devil's advocate, I would want to know, you know, if voice writers were a part of the national NCRA and they're really frustrated with their takedown methods generally, you know, would that be a help or a hindrance?

Because if they don't necessarily have.

In general, I'm not saying there's not outliers, but from what I've seen on Facebook, LinkedIn and the different conversations, a lot of voice writers are really frustrated by not getting the outcomes that I would say are promoted, that they should be able to get or that they do have.

Right.

And I was, I was disappointed with everyone else that they weren't going to be allowed in.

Okay, yes, here it is.

Voice writer amendment fails.

So it was posted on July 25th on NCRA's Facebook page.

Just reading quickly here, it says the results are in the.

So they had had a few things.

It was a dues increase, two bylaw amendments and the voice writer amendment.

So I believe.

Yes, it was amendment number three and it was 53.2% against.

So it was pretty much like almost even.

Yeah, it was.

Yeah, against.

Okay, four.

Okay, I'm reading it correctly now.

Four was 575 at 53.2% and then against was 505, 46.8%.

Oh, okay.

So it, it failed.

But it Just made me curious around, you know, I'm not exactly sure why those that were for were for and why those that were against were against, but.

And I didn't participate in the.

The vote, but I was just curious, you know, and so when all this information was coming up about the AI tools that they're trying to use, some of them as a backup to their main method, which is be speaking into a mask.

And then seeing the challenges that I face as a scopist that I see voice writers struggle with was just.

Was interesting to me.

So I'm not exactly sure why people were for or why people were against, but I felt like if I was in the shoes or I was one of the powers that be, so to speak, I would be concerned that a lot of voice writers really struggle.

You know, I'm not saying a lot of stenos don't struggle, but I would say in my experience as a scopist, most struggling stenos, like, and have.

And when I'm saying struggling, I mean struggling with their translation, struggling with their ability to keep up, you know, struggling with those types of things.

The voice writers struggle way more than stenos, and it doesn't ever seem like something they can kick or get past.

And when I was seeing the discourse about it in the Facebook groups, it was even more than my own personal experience.

A lot of them are really, really frustrated.

And really, they hire transcriptionists instead of scopists.

In a lot of cases, their notes really don't seem to be valuable to them, which I found.

I know if I were in their shoes, I'd be really frustrated.

So is it, like, a technical issue that's happening with Dragon or whatever the software is?

Or is it, like, you know, just a lack of.

Or we.

We're not sure about that.

Yeah, I'm not really sure.

I think.

Well, one, I will say this.

Yes.

What I saw and what I've seen in the different conversations is that it's definitely a technical issue.

And by the way, if.

Sorry, if any voice writers are listening to this episode, you can also chime in by sending your thoughts.

There's something called Speak Pipe that I have set up, so at the end of this, I'll just explain the instructions for that, but it's pretty easy.

You can just record a voice memo and send it to me, and I'll listen to it.

So, yeah, because we're just.

Rachel and I are trying to figure this out, or we're just trying to, like, we're talking about what we know, which is a little bit Limited.

But if any of you guys have any insights, please feel free to share.

Okay.

Continue.

Okay.

So, yeah, a lot of what I was seeing was that it is a technical issue.

Either they feel like it's their mask or maybe like the Styrofoam or the foam that's inside of the mask.

There's a little bit of reverb there.

They have a lot of obstacles when it comes to, like, the dampness inside the mask.

I saw that, like, they try to dry it out regularly.

Some use, like, a paper towel or some sort of insert in addition to what's there to kind of just absorb moisture while they're.

So there's challenges around the best kind of mask.

That's one which, if I compare that to Steno.

Yes, there's debate around machines, but most times ice stenos end up figuring out where their home is, you know, depending on which machine they're going to choose to use.

But with the mask issue, it seemed like it was coming up a lot and they were, you know, kind of just vacillating, like, oh, I had this one.

I did the setup.

I got everything situated based on this recommendation, and I'm still really struggling.

Yeah.

Because that's interesting.

Like, I never thought about that, how the mask, like, completely, from what it looks like, I've never tried it on, but from what it looks like, I've seen what I've seen in pictures and videos, it's like, completely, like, there's no air to go.

I mean, of course there has to be some air holes, but it just looks like, completely covered.

So I guess that makes sense that it would get, like, wet.

Yeah, it definitely gets damp.

And then, interestingly enough, I'm in the process of about to start the voice, retraining the voice writers as stenos here in Nigeria.

And so I was.

I think that's probably another reason why I'm kind of curious about the challenges that they face.

So when I was seeing this kind of conversation, also around Dragon, there's a lot of, I think, apprehension around the fact that Dragon is saying that they're not going to continue to update the software.

So a lot of writing students are apprehensive about this.

Some people are saying, like, don't worry about it.

There's a lot of softwares that we use today that are not consistently updated.

And so it's nothing really to worry about too much.

But some people are really worried about that fact.

That's weird.

Like, why wouldn't they continue to update it?

They're just throwing the Towel in like not.

Yeah, I don't think no more Dragon.

Yeah.

What I was reading people say is that they, you know, that product, the Dragon product is not necessarily created for voice writers specifically.

You know what I mean?

So it wasn't something that.

I don't think it was their intention.

The read that I'm getting from what people were talking about is for it to be for the voice writing community different than like Case Catalyst or Eclipse or Proc, you know, companies that are making software for court reporters.

I don't think Dragon was created that way.

You know, Dragon has several other uses in the medical transcription space, you know, in other products.

So I don't really think that's what people were saying is that it's not one of their court reporters don't represent a huge market of who their audience is.

So that was some of the reasons that were cited.

But I know there's apprehension around that.

And then.

Wait, what do you mean by that Dragons audience?

Like, I guess the consumers of the Dragon software.

So they're not only selling to court reporters, they're selling to like what else would they be selling to or who?

I guess.

Yeah, they're, they're in like for instance, in the medical space.

Like doctors use Dragon software when they're getting their notes, their progress, patients.

So they.

I know that court reporting based on what I know, like I've, like, I worked in a doctor's office while I was studying to be a court reporter and they use Dragon as part of their like.

Right.

So like medical transcription.

I know from like seeing the medical space use Dragon and I know there's other spaces, other industries that Dragon sells to.

So I know that their primary or the majority of their market share, the majority of who they're selling to is not court reporters.

I got it.

So they're not focusing on updating for court reporters.

Yes.

And I know that even the versions that they have, like, I know they have a Dragon legal version or that's, you know, geared towards that, but people were even complaining about.

I think a lot of the reason there's apprehension is I was seeing a lot of complaints about this current version that they're on.

I know that the Nigerian court reporting market or the ones that use Dragon are incredibly frustrated.

But I haven't, you know, really consulted with trainers to figure out what the actual issues are.

But a lot of students that are like coming into the industry and you know, trying to come into court reporting, I just saw so much apprehension around Dragon and the softwares and using AI as a backup.

And a lot of the voice writing community having this discourse, whether it was allowable to use AI as a backup while they are taking the record down and there is discourse web for and against.

Like, all the rules say you can't use it, that your transcript has to be generated from your notes that come from your mask.

But.

And the software.

I heard that, like, from my research, I saw somewhere or read somewhere that their software, that Dragon does use AI Anyway.

Interesting, interesting.

Like, it's like AI is integrated into the way that it works.

Yes.

Well, I think.

You know, it's funny, I was having a training at the judiciary last week and we were talking about this term AI and kind of using it in our space as it relates to court reporting.

And I think that I don't know if this discourse or this conversation has been had, but I had the conversation with my students that you need to differentiate between speech to text, quote, unquote, AI and AI where it's learning the system or the software.

Right.

Is programmed inside of software where it's learning how to do something better.

I think those are two different types of AI.

And I think we're putting.

Some people are conflating the two.

And there's also Steno Court Reporter is using AI to.

There's a thing that's a service or a product that Stenograph is selling.

It's called Check it.

I'm sure you.

Yeah, I've heard that.

Yeah.

So that I.

A lot of the court reporters that I worked with in Supreme Court were.

Were using that and saying that it was really helpful.

And basically what it is is it.

It generates a transcript with AI to compare side by side to your transcript and then it'll suggest edits.

I think.

I think that's what it is.

And I did try it out for like a day and I didn't like it because there were some really, really dumb, ridiculous things that it was telling me to change.

Like suggesting me to change.

Like, for example, when they ask, what is your name and address?

In the beginning, the check IT software, the AI thought it was suggesting that I change address to dress, which doesn't make any sense.

Like, there was no intelligence behind it at all.

No contextual, like, clues.

Didn't use those.

So I was just like, okay, this is garbage.

That's how I felt.

And I know the other corporate seemed to have a better experience with it, but I just was like, I'd rather just not use it.

Yeah, yeah, I so.

And that's.

You're right, that's A third, that's the products that come out of AI being used on software that is constantly generating transcripts and it's learning as it goes.

So I would think, I'm not, not a developer, but I would think that Check it is a product, a byproduct of there being AI software running in the engine of Case Catalyst that is taking in all the transcripts and all the audio.

Right now we have proprietary audio from Stenograph that is no longer OPUS or wave.

Right.

Though those audio files, to my knowledge, cannot be extracted and used in a third party audio player like we could with OPUS or WAVE before.

So if I'm assuming that the AI inside of the Case Catalyst engine is listening to all of the audio files.

Right.

And there's some sort of AI system that is comparing the words in a rough draft transcript to the audio files.

That is AI.

Right.

And the result of that data that it's extracting and comparing, however the developers built it is now able to create some sort of proofreader or check it.

And then now we have a tool that's being created based on the data that is being extracted, you know, from all the software.

So when I look.

So I guess you're right.

I would say that's three different ways that AI is being used in the space.

So what my position was, at least in the Nigerian space, is that, you know, we have to really be clear about what we're talking about, you know, when we're saying AI.

So from my perspective as a voice writer, I feel like it doesn't, it shouldn't matter.

I don't have all the information, but it shouldn't really matter what you're using.

If you know how to get a final transcript out and if your final transcript is good and you were tested and you know, what a final transcript should look like, however you get there, I don't really think should be a huge topic of conversation, you know.

Yeah.

Because as long as there's a certified human being that is entrusted to oversee the entire process, like a court reporter's job is not, you know.

Yeah.

The method is kind of like, I don't see it as the most important thing.

I see the brain and the understanding and the development of the skills to understand like the context and really being able to verify and read it through and certify like we were there, we heard everything.

We know that this is accurate to the best of our ability.

Like that's, you know, the most important thing, I think.

Yeah, yeah.

And I think also like where I am concerned about AI is that most of the times I think the companies that have the capital to build a better speech to text, I would rather use that than the term AI for that.

Right?

What speech to text?

Well, speech to text to me, like softwares that can do speech to text.

Speech to text has been around for, I'm going to say, at least 40 years.

So that's, I don't consider that AI, even though people are calling it AI because it existed before ChatGPT was rolled out.

I guess in my mind I consider AI, you know, from being able to exactly like being chatgpt esque.

Right.

I mean, what I understood from my conversation with Chris Day, the author of Synonymous, he, he's done a lot of research into AI and he told me that it's been, people have been saying AI is replacing us for over 40 years, I think.

Yeah, like, so AI has been being used for like, yeah, for a while, but I just haven't really kept up with it or done the research to understand it fully.

And that's, that's, I agree with him.

But I would say before the word AI came out, they were saying speech to text is going to take our jobs.

Oh, okay.

So if we now want to use the term AI, that is what they're talking about.

They're talking about software that has the capability to convert speech into text.

Right.

So companies that have either already been doing it or are trying to like get in on the ground floor and build it out.

My biggest concern is that they don't know court reporting.

They're not coming from a court reporting background.

They're either coming from a general transcription background or just not even in the industry at all.

So when you look at the interface, when you look at the software itself, how it looks, what it does, you can tell that the people that built this don't have any court reporting background.

So when they're training people, they're either hiring people because now they've gone beyond development, right.

They've gotten to, okay, now we want to sell a product to a court system.

And I just, I actually just gave a session on this, explaining on behalf of a company that created one of these tools.

You know how they're marketing and you know how it everything works.

And one of my concerns about this type of technology, which of course it's totally different in Nigeria because most of the judges here are still writing by hand.

So the effort that it would take to convert to teach at least 5,000 stenos is massive.

And I don't think there's time for that in this particular market.

But as is being created in this market, of course I'm thinking about the American one.

And my fear is if you take people off the street, so to speak, and say, hey, we have this technology, we want you to be a digital court reporter.

If they don't have the foundation, you know, of what court reporting is and where they're trying to get, how you're taking audio or raw notes and getting them to the level of a final transcript and being able to think through scenarios, which is what court reporters can do, scopists can do, proofreaders can do, you know, and really have this scenario.

I think we all have a picture in our mind of where that transcript needs to get to, you know, and the process and the steps.

If you're teaching someone to use speech to text technology and they have no background, no foundation, they're lost.

And it means the transcript is lost, you know.

And so that is, that's my fear.

My fear is when are these companies going to actually partner with people that know what they're doing in this space already so that the final product can look like what we know it needs to look like, you know, and they can actually be a keeper of the record, a protector, a guardian of the record.

Yeah, there's a fear.

There is a school, a court reporting school.

I can't remember the name of the school, but the, the two that I met with, her name is, one of them is Patricia Falls and the other one is Lisa Dees.

So you may be familiar with them or some of the listeners may be familiar with who they are.

And you probably, some of you guys probably know what school I'm talking about, but I just can't remember the name.

And, but I met with, with Lisa because I used to work with her.

She, I was not employed, but working with an agency that she was a manager at.

And so we worked together back in the past when I was first a brand new court reporter and she was a court reporter as well, a stenographer, and so was Patricia Falls.

So they created, I don't know if they create.

They built something and she did a demo for me because I was trying to understand like what exactly is.

I think my goal was understanding what the tool was that she created.

I wish I had the info in front of me so I could speak more knowledgeably and say exactly what it's called.

But, but it's something like speech to text, where it's, where it's transcribing exactly what you're saying.

In real time in the form of a transcript.

So it was coming up and just our conversation, everything that we were talking about was coming up as a transcript.

And it was like surprisingly surprising.

The word surprisingly doesn't do it justice.

I don't even know what word to use.

I was like, shocked, but like, I guess shockingly very accurate.

Like, really accurate.

Yeah.

And I'm like, wow.

I don't, I don't even know what to like, what to think.

But I guess it's getting to the point where from what I witnessed, it looks like it could be used.

And if it's overseen by court reporter, like real court reporters, stenographers that have experience like that can't.

It can't get better than.

Not better.

I mean, okay, I don't know.

I mean, maybe the best thing is to actually like literally type it down or write it down, but, but if a stenographer is watching these words come up and able to edit them in real time, I don't know, I feel like that's pretty, that's pretty close to what the industry is striving for.

Yeah.

And that's what you said at the end is the piece that I wonder how developers, software companies are going to overcome that hurdle.

Because for me, if you see all of that come up, you as a court reporter, you are not going to think, wow, this is so near perfect.

I'm not going to listen to full audio.

That's never where your brain is going to go.

Do you know what I mean?

You're going to think of it as a tool.

This is going to assist me in getting where I need to go.

But someone that didn't know what court reporting was before they met this company is going to think that, like, this is so perfect.

Yeah, this is so perfect.

Let me just run spell check and send it out the door.

Do you know what I mean?

Without.

Right.

I mean, yeah, we have the experience of knowing, you know, just because it looks good, you know, that doesn't mean we're where we need to be.

I mean, I have experienced the scopus of looking at very, very clean roughs where I might only be changing four words on a page, you know, so that experience is going to shape how I will edit.

Yeah.

So I know that technology is, is getting there.

And I would guess, you know, I'm not familiar with those schools, but I have worked with students that have graduated those schools from those schools and finished those courses.

And that's why I'm saying what I'm saying there's a Disconnect in the output that these students think they're supposed to be putting out and how they're struggling.

And I don't know about.

I just want to speak generally a lot of times coming from the perspective of having scoping school, online scoping school, one of the challenges that I see, and I'm just speaking from a scoping perspective, and I know that it transcends into the court reporting perspective, is it's very hard to connect dots for students when you haven't been in the space in that way in a long time.

So if I'm a scopist and I scoped 30 years ago or 20 years ago, even 15 years ago, and I'm trying to teach students now how to perform and meet the objectives that court reporters want, it's going to be a challenge if I'm not active in the community.

So I can be court reporting community.

And of course scoping falls under that.

I can be active in that community, but it doesn't mean that I've earned a paycheck doing a for spot specific task recently.

Right.

So one of the challenges that I've seen with students that I've worked with that have either coached or mentored from several programs, several different programs, it could be court reporting programs, scoping programs, or digital programs.

Is there is that disconnect?

I can tell that either enough attention to the current market was not given to them in their curriculum or how they were learning and they have those gaps.

So if I'm seeing those gaps, you know, as a mentor, a consultant, a coach, and these are from people that are in the court reporting space that are teaching, I'm really nervous about what the gaps are going to look like when it's very clear that the instructors are not in the court reporting space at all and never have been and have no perspective.

Yeah.

So you, you mentioned before that you're the number 5,000 came up.

Is that the number of court reporters in Niger?

No, that was, that's what I'm estimating conservatively would be needed.

So yes, yes, that is what I would say would be needed as far as stenographers in Nigeria.

And you also mentioned that you are retraining the voice writers to become stenographers, which is very interesting.

So was there like an uptick of voice writers that.

Did they like, was that the thing for people to get into court reporting by becoming a voice writer and also.

Well, anyway, I'll just, I'll start with that and then I'll ask you something else.

Yeah, sure.

So that directive for me to retrain the voice writers as stenos was not my suggestion or my idea.

That is my instruction from the judiciary.

That is what they want to happen with the voice writers that they have because their output isn't good.

Okay.

So basically working in the public sector in Nigeria is like nothing I've ever experienced experience insofar as how they hire.

So for steno and for voice, another agency trains them.

When I say agency, in the past it's been the Ministry of Justice for Lagos State that trained them under different grants or different NGOs or different business models.

However they trained them, but it wasn't the agency that employs them currently to do the work is not the one that trained them.

And they also didn't like independently go on their own and sign up for a trade school and say, there's a job opportunity for me here.

Let me learn about stenography or let me learn to become a court reporter.

They were kind of recruited and this is the skill you're going to learn and then we're going to send you to the judiciary after this.

So they were trained, but they weren't trained to the international standard.

They weren't trained to international speeds, and they're kind of just dropped off for lack of a better expression.

Now there is no official court reporting department in most judiciaries to understand what a court reporter does, you know, so.

Shouldn'T there just be like a nationwide judiciary?

Like it just seems.

Or like a worldwide.

It just seems like very different in every location.

It is, it is, it is.

And it's very hard to.

I know in Nigeria specifically there is no.

If there's not a job description for something, it's makes it incredibly difficult.

Yeah.

So if there's not an official title.

Yeah, it just seems like there's no specific standards, like across the board.

Exactly.

So part of my job is building those standards, writing frameworks, creating departments per state.

And if I have success in a certain state, then I can introduce it at a federal level.

But it's still also very challenging because the federation should not be seen as interfering in what the states are doing.

So it's a lot of that conversation that I am not equipped to have.

Like I'm not equipped to know where to even start to begin to have that.

So what I'm doing for now is just addressing what each state that I work with tells me to do.

So for Lego specifically, they are having a really, a lot of their voice writers.

One, their equipment is expiring, their software is Expiring, and there's no real management over how to get their software and their equipment updated, upgraded, because the purchase was not made by the judiciary themselves.

So there's a lot of technicalities around that where it's like, you know what, let's just have all stenos and convert them so that that whole piece around software and equipment is a lot easier.

So I definitely have an uphill battle on my hands.

Oh, that is so interesting.

The voice writers have been voice writing for at least three years now, probably closer to five now.

So trying to motivate civil servants to learn a different steno skill is incredibly challenging for me because I'm just putting myself in their shoes.

Right.

Like, if I already learned this skill, why would I want to learn another one?

And there's not really any financial incentive for me to do that.

And it's also like the more difficult one that people don't even feel like the most people don't even finish.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Right.

So I definitely have an uphill battle on my hand.

So, yeah, that's.

That's my answer to.

I think I answered your questions.

Yeah.

Well, anyway, I mean, I'm sure, you know, if that's what they want, if that's what the judiciary wants, I guess there must be a way to do it and there must be a way to make it fun and easy.

Yes, I'm working on it.

I mean, I think I always thought that writing on the machine was fun and easy.

Like, I loved it.

Yeah, yeah.

And I whizzed through it.

I actually think that voice writers in Lagos, that they're definitely having challenges.

I don't think I can generously see maybe five are having success with that method.

Do you think it's just if they had that.

Go ahead.

Is it mostly in Nigeria or the patterns that you're noticing on Facebook and LinkedIn?

Like, the conversations are more like everywhere.

Is it like, all across the board?

No, I think.

Well, one, the patterns that I'm seeing around this conversation around AI being used as a backup or as a tool for voice writers in America.

Yes, I'm definitely seeing a pattern of translation issues and.

But now, specifically to Nigeria, it's 90%.

I don't know what the percentages are in America about how out of 10 voice writers, how many are happy with their translation rate and feel like.

Do you think it's because of, like, the accent?

Because in Nigeria, they can have a pretty thick accent.

Yes, I think a lot of it has to do with the accent.

I also think A lot of it has to do with how their Dragon was trained.

I don't know if I don't know which company taught them, you know, five years ago or so, but I.

My belief is that to train or create a language model to fit the Nigerian landscape is daunting.

And I don't know if anyone that trained them ever thought about that piece because it's deceiving.

They speak English, so you may think it's not if they spoke French right.

Maybe whoever was training it would think about language, right, as being an obstacle because it's a different language.

But with English, with them speaking English, you might think, okay, this is a no brainer.

This is just 1, 2, 3.

I want to do what I normally do.

However, not only does Nigeria have their own type of Nigerian English that's spoken, then you also have different accents.

There's over 200 languages spoken in Nigeria.

Yeah, 200 separate languages.

So that brings about a different type of accent based on the first language of that person.

So for instance, the accent of a Nigerian person who speaks Yoruba versus the accent of a Nigerian person that speaks Igbo are two totally different accents.

So that being the case, there's a lot to consider.

There's a lot it does.

I mean, I would assume the Dragon software is probably created for English speakers or is it like all languages and not quiet dialects and stuff?

So I've seen, let me say this, I've actually worked with a voice writer who was in the States and I want to say that maybe her first language was something was Spanish.

So she had an accent when she spoke.

I didn't notice there being an issue different than someone that American English was their first language as a voice writer.

So I do think the software, and if I think about Dragon, right, being in the medical space, we have dozens of accents, right, that doctors have.

You know, not all doctors that use that software, you know, their first language is in American English or British English.

So I know that it can cope.

I feel like it can handle it.

I just feel like there needs to be some mentorship and some guidance of how to get it where it needs to go.

But I think it can do it because, you know, I personally feel like the Southeast Asian accents are some of the thickest in the world.

And, you know, we have a lot of doctors that are from Southeast Asia.

And so that accent being really difficult, I know it can understand this.

I think there's just some guidance and training that needs to happen different than the cookie cutter curriculum that might have gotten Them where they need to go.

It's for.

For Nigeria.

But they're so frustrated with it generally that I'm not going to be given the opportunity to try to solve that problem, which I would have loved to do.

Right.

I would have loved to just keep what they already had, you know, intact and then just figure out how to work with some mentors or some trainers or some coaches to figure out what the issue is, identify it.

One of the things they said, it's really weird thing in Nigeria because most of the judges are.

All the judges have written longhand since they've been independent as a country.

They talk really slow, right?

Because the judge is used to literally writing what everyone is saying as they're saying it.

So the judge might write down half of a sentence and say wait or stop.

Okay, go ahead.

So when the lawyers are accustomed to that.

Right.

Everybody is used to that.

So now the record is going somewhere between 70 and 100 words per minute.

Because there's this stop and start, stop and start, start, stop and start flow.

Well, the court reporters, the voice writers, have said that that creates a challenge.

They actually have to do something in their settings where they reduce the speed at which they're speaking.

Because if what's coming in is so slow, there's like some sort of recalibration that has to happen.

That's the best way I can explain it.

How they've explained it to me anyway.

I haven't had the opportunity to kind of get in there and really understand it and kind of create that issue and see it for myself.

But a lot of the voice writers have complained about that.

So, yeah, if there's any voice writers that are there in America that know what I'm talking about, I would.

I'm curious to know.

But they're saying that if someone is speaking too slowly, they have to go out, create a new file, and create that file to listen slower or something.

I guess they could just like.

I mean, that seems like an easy fix.

They could just train the judges not to have to write everything down now that they have a court reporter, right?

Yes.

Yeah.

But I think that.

So here's what's interesting.

All proceedings are not taken down.

So if there's a court reporter in the room, which is one of the challenges that I have with training here in Nigeria, or at least in Lagos, is because they don't take down all the proceedings.

I don't think that a Nigerian court reporter, professionally trained, working as a court reporter for 10 years, could go to an American court and keep Up.

Why?

Because court reporters are typing everything that is being said.

So court reporters here do not take down hearings, don't take down motions, don't take down sentencings, don't take down judgments.

So depending on the division that they're in, they could go two or three days and not write at all, or they could go a week and not write at all.

Unless you're in criminal or maybe like family probate, which for them those two visions are.

Divisions are together.

You're not getting an opportunity to write.

So it's really hard to get a judge to trust you.

And the way it is in Nigeria, each judge is in control completely of their courtroom.

So it's not like where administration is saying, here's your court reporter.

They're going to write everything that's being said.

It's more like this is a staff.

You can utilize the staff however you'd like to.

Okay.

Wow, this is so interesting.

That creates so many challenges.

I mean, it creates so many challenges.

So my next training actually is going to be with the judges.

Yeah.

And you need to train those judges because they should.

That's actually like, that's putting a lot of pressure on them to have to decide how they want to use their court reporter.

Like, they're not supposed to be worrying about that.

They should just be like doing what they do.

Yes.

But if they're given, you know, you have to realize they've been in control of the transcription process forever, which is.

So that's like too much.

That's definitely unfortunate.

But when they think about, you know, when they first court reporting wasn't introduced to the judges very well here.

The narrative initially was that they were spies from the Federation.

Oh my gosh.

So there really wasn't a conversation and a proper introduction.

Even when the new judges come in.

Lego State hires new judges, I think it's every year.

And they'll get a batch of new judges because there's a batch that's going to retire.

Right.

They're not given.

This is a court reporter.

This is how it's to be used in your court.

They're not given that kind of lesson in that instruction.

So there's.

Judges are used to having a lot, almost 100% autonomy over that whole process.

So the letting go process is huge and each differently.

Yes, I'm trying.

That's part of my effort.

Yes.

Is to try to get them to let go.

Well, you've got a responsibility and project in the Nigerian justice system.

Yes, it's.

It's definitely a lot.

It's definitely a lot.

So my training with them is coming up soon, and I hope I can do it justice.

Wow.

Judges are going to be training, so I think.

Well, initially it's going to be at least 42.

Wow.

But all of the.

All of the high court judges are supposed to have court reporters, so I want to say there's 76 right now.

That's amazing.

So I just.

Yeah, I think you're gonna do amazing.

And it's.

They're gonna learn so much, and they're gonna be able to have more peace of mind and be at ease now that they don't have to take the record down and they can focus on making judgments and decisions and getting the evidence and everything that they need to make just decisions.

So that's amazing.

You have such an important mission in the justice system.

And I'm so happy that we were able to connect again and talk about what's going on in the industry and what issues people are talking about.

What's going on.

It's been really enlightening, and I wish we could just keep talking because we probably could go on for hours.

But.

But yeah, I would love to continue this conversation at our.

We were going to do what, once a month?

I think so.

Yeah.

Okay, great.

Well, do you have any last words, maybe for our listeners who aren't familiar with.

With your work or with where they can find you online, you can share, like, what, What.

What's the best way to get in contact with you in case they have questions?

Sure.

Okay.

And I'll also add an intro as well.

Okay.

Your bio.

Sure.

So the best way to get in contact with me, really, is through my Facebook page, Rachel Harris.

And then my Instagram is Scoping Underscore Coach.

And my email address is rachelfirm and associates.com.

you can also reach me on my website, sofirm and associates.com.

that is S O P H E R I M as in Mary and associates dot com.

And that's how people can get in touch with me if they want to learn more about what it is that I'm doing here in Nigeria.

Rachel, thank you so much for always sharing such amazing insights and for coming on the podcast again.

And I really look forward to talking to you the next time.

Any last words you want to share?

No, I don't think I have any today.

Thank you so much.

I've loved doing this.

I hope we can keep it.

Keep it up.

Awesome.

All right, well, so nice talking to you.

I'll talk to you next time.

Bye.

Bye, everyone.

Thanks for listening.

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